tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8406516107920480032.post6484039119822257468..comments2023-09-20T01:15:13.809-07:00Comments on Two Sides to the Coin: Conflict of gamersErichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17973885708132273602noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8406516107920480032.post-76048933028534533202009-01-13T15:00:00.000-08:002009-01-13T15:00:00.000-08:00"I respect your comments, and understand why A LOT..."I respect your comments, and understand why A LOT of people love ASL. I do wonder how much CCE you've played."<BR/><BR/>----------<BR/>Two or three games, I think. Enough to realize that I didn't enjoy playing the game. To play more would have been like hitting my thumb with a hammer, but doing it again just to be sure it hurt. ;-)<BR/>----------<BR/><BR/>"I ask, because the Fire action/order cards are the most plentiful, and in the 50 or so games I've played, I think I've allowed a unit to cross in front of an MG maybe 2 times!"<BR/><BR/>----------<BR/>I assume you've played a lot. So, I don't understand: you claim that the ability to cross the field of fire of a MG is important, and that the vagaries of the cards in CC:E allow this to happen, but then you say you've only ever had it happen twice? Is it a big feature of the system or something that almost never comes up?<BR/>----------<BR/><BR/>"You do have a handful of cards (sometimes I've had as many as 4 or 5 Fire cards)...."<BR/><BR/>----------<BR/>What does that represent? When does the company commander have no trouble at all getting his units to coordinate their fire effectively, but no ability whatsoever to get them to move?<BR/>----------<BR/><BR/>"As far as a movement order which leaves troops stuck out in the open, all I can offer is:<BR/>Watch Band of Brothers, and in episode 3 I believe, Winters leads his men up a road towards a town,and they panic under fire- basically just lie down in the road- and he has a hell of a time rallying them. And that's from Real combat. SO it did happen."<BR/><BR/>----------<BR/>Your example works better with my argument. :-) In your example, the men break under fire. Admittedly, in Squad Leader they would automatically rout toward cover; if unable to do so without crossing open ground, they'd be eliminated. But they didn't get partway across a road, then suffer some kind of command failure, freeze, and THEN come under fire in the open. In other words, they broke under enemy fire, they didn't fail to draw a Move card to finish a multi-turn maneuver.<BR/>----------<BR/><BR/>"In ASL, can that happen? Probably, now remember in CCE, you can manage your hand,and choose not to move until you have multiple move/advance cards, as well as rally and smoke."<BR/><BR/>----------<BR/>And of course, this is what you do, time permitting. I can't think of where I'm fishing around for a smoke canister...don't I either have one or not? And wait for a Rally card? So, a company commander at some point realizes, "It's no big deal if my boys come under fire now...I know in advance I'll be able to rally them!"?<BR/>----------<BR/><BR/>"The real genius of CCE is the smooth way that random events and chaos is seamlessly brought into the game.<BR/>That is what makes it my favorite game of all time."<BR/><BR/>----------<BR/>Well, you have more experience, so maybe the good experiences balance out the "wacky" elements I and others have seen. But there was nothing seamless about the aforementioned card droughts, and there certainly wasn't anything seamless about random events such as having a dead Russian mortar crew rise from the dead and appear behind the line of the German advance, in a hex they just marched through a turn or so before. It was...random.<BR/> <BR/>I appreciate that many people love their game, and I kinda see what CC:E was going for (it wanted to be Up Front: the Boardgame), but I think they went very wide of the mark for me.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the interesting discussion!<BR/><BR/>Randy...Antoine D'Aubernounhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13199995347965863135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8406516107920480032.post-49664187255044058052009-01-13T14:15:00.000-08:002009-01-13T14:15:00.000-08:00RandyI respect your comments, and understand why A...Randy<BR/><BR/>I respect your comments, and understand why A LOT of people love ASL. I do wonder how much CCE you've played. I ask, because the Fire action/order cards are the most plentiful, and in the 50 or so games I've played, I think I've allowed a unit to cross in front of an MG maybe 2 times!<BR/>You do have a handful of cards (sometimes I've had as many as 4 or 5 Fire cards)....<BR/>As far as a movement order which leaves troops stuck out in the open, all I can offer is:<BR/>Watch Band of Brothers, and in episode 3 I believe, Winters leads his men up a road towards a town,and they panic under fire- basically just lie down in the road- and he has a hell of a time rallying them. And that's from Real combat. SO it did happen.<BR/>In ASL, can that happen? Probably, now remember in CCE, you can manage your hand,and choose not to move until you have multiple move/advance cards, as well as rally and smoke.<BR/><BR/>The real genius of CCE is the smooth way that random events and chaos is seamlessly brought into the game.<BR/>That is what makes it my favorite game of all time.<BR/><BR/>Much like ASL folks love their game.<BR/><BR/>It truly is all good.<BR/><BR/>regard, JaxJacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17977423734950866138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8406516107920480032.post-70911092348441717172009-01-13T13:11:00.000-08:002009-01-13T13:11:00.000-08:00Mike,I also thought Conflict of Heroes was fun (yo...Mike,<BR/><BR/>I also thought Conflict of Heroes was fun (you can read the reactions of Tim and me over at http://twoguysgaming.blogspot.com), but it strikes me as a fairly gamey way of handling command. While having to manage the CAPs "resource" is elegant, Euro-like, and introduces some cool tension into the players' decisions, I'm not sure it's all that realistic. I mean, were some good leaders always good leaders, or did they all "dry up" at some point every couple of minutes? And were all NCOs equal? Is it reasonable that there's a sort of uniformity to the quality of the leaders, even across squads from different units? (I'm assuming a common CAP pool is used, even when armor and infantry work together, for instance.) I realize it's a useful abstraction from a gameplay point of view, but I do lament a little bit the loss of feel that I get from these little underlying breakdowns in realism.<BR/><BR/>That said, give me this over CC:E any day!<BR/><BR/>Randy...Antoine D'Aubernounhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13199995347965863135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8406516107920480032.post-14280800596055198222009-01-13T12:51:00.000-08:002009-01-13T12:51:00.000-08:00Jackson said:But, for table games, you have to go ...Jackson said:<BR/><BR/>But, for table games, you have to go w/cards. Why? Because we need to see the units to be able to play (especially solitaire) but even ftf, but we need to NOT know what they are capable of. The always mentioned "fishing for a fire card" is actually the principle strength of CC. Why? Because from the other side of the table, it allows real life events like Movement, w/out automatically getting Fired on. Sure you see that MG sitting there, but will they fire? This lack of a fire card is MORE realistic than the ALWAYS fire (like ASL).<BR/><BR/>----------<BR/>I'm not sure I understand how it's more realistic that, under normal circumstances and with any regularity at all, a well-trained, good order German MG team wouldn't fire their weapon when an enemy crossed their LOS in the open. The times that they do have their heads down, it's probably as the result of some external stress, like covering fire. Games like Squad Leader model this just fine: one fire group lays down suppressing fire (breaking the MG crew) and then the maneuver group moves without worrying as much about the MG. Or, you advance slowly to lower the risk of crossing in the open. Or you cry "Banzai!", make a mad dash for it, and pray. But just approaching a street, seeing an MG at the end of the street and crossing because you think there's any reasonable likelihood that they'll forget to cut you down seems, well, not very realistic to me.<BR/><BR/>But worse than not having the Fire card you need is getting part way through an advance and running out of Move cards. Right, my guys will stop in the middle of the street and there'll be some <I>command</I> reason that they sit there getting their asses shot off rather than taking cover in the adjacent building? I'm with Eric and Mike: CC is just too wacky. I appreciate the boldness of their concept, but the feel is entirely wrong for me.<BR/><BR/>Randy...Antoine D'Aubernounhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13199995347965863135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8406516107920480032.post-90938418324900712002008-11-06T08:33:00.000-08:002008-11-06T08:33:00.000-08:00Dug, to take it one step farther, the trouble w/t...Dug, to take it one step farther, the trouble w/the CAP system - coupled w/the Eye of God is that you know when your opponent is OUT of CAPS.<BR/>Now that I think about it, I believe a House Rule of Hidden CAP tracks is the way to go.<BR/><BR/>Overcoming Eye o God is NOT an easy thing. I HATE hidden units way too 'fiddly' and pen and paper! No way. That is the prime element that computers bring to gaming.<BR/>But, for table games, you have to go w/cards.<BR/>Why? Because we need to see the units to be able to play (especially solitaire) but even ftf, but we need to NOT know what they are capable of.<BR/>The always mentioned "fishing for a fire card" is actually the principle strength of CC.<BR/>Why? Because from the other side of the table, it allows real life events like Movement, w/out automatically getting Fired on. <BR/>Sure you see that MG sitting there, but will they fire? This lack of a fire card is MORE realistic than the ALWAYS fire (like ASL) And of course, the worst is the totally gamey moving past an "already activated" unit that is done for the turn.<BR/>That's what the CAP system fixes.<BR/><BR/>I really do like the idea of Hidden CAPS, it will add a Clint Eastwood like element- "Did I fire my last bullet or not, well did I Punk" (not even close to the real dialogue, sorry)<BR/><BR/>Anyway, I think the best part of CoH is actually the interaction of Infantry and Armor, which you haven't gotten to yet. <BR/>And of course the Euro quality.<BR/>Very cool game.<BR/>I could see Ewe even adding individual leaders/heroes at some point. That would add another missing element (Lock n Load's strong suit).<BR/><BR/>Good review, as always.<BR/>thanks<BR/>JacksonJacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17977423734950866138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8406516107920480032.post-71564975546400805562008-11-02T20:27:00.000-08:002008-11-02T20:27:00.000-08:00Maybe it's just because I have lots of discretiona...Maybe it's just because I have lots of discretionary income and free time, but I see absolutely no reason why there isn't space for both Combat Commander and Conflict of Heroes. They both do things in very different ways, and each scratches a different itch. CC is, to my mind, very close to what real combat would be like for the commander of a platoon or two, trying to keep in touch with them, get them to do the things I want them to, etc. <BR/><BR/>CoH, on the other hand, uses the oh-so-popular Eye Of God scheme whereby players know exactly what is going on all of the time, will always be able to activate units (within reason), and everyone jumps when someone says jump. <BR/><BR/>Not that there's anything wrong with that. Or the CC system for that matter. They both do different things. <BR/><BR/>The CoH system has some things to figure out. First off, they need to have smaller 5/8" counters for the combat result chits so you can put them in the middle of the squad counters and see exactly what's what. Second, they need to change up the two armor values on the counter so the one that affects the front of the unit is the one oriented toward the front of the counter. This is backwards right now. Both of these issues can easily be rectified with a little DIY magic, of course. <BR/><BR/>Also, CoH has no roll-your-own scenarios, and the scenarios that are there are early-war Russian Front only, with limited unit types. With CC (and just the original set, not Med or the Para battle pack), you can run scenarios from pretty much any battle between the three different nationalities, and with the Med pack that goes up exponentially to just about any action in Europe during WW2. I understand that CoH is going to be expanded as time goes on, but Academy is a small company with limited resources and is just starting to figure things out, so I'd be surprised if we had more than one more module in the next year. <BR/><BR/>All of that said, I think that CoH is a brilliant design, one that is actually easier to teach to a newb than CC (which is saying something - the combat system is very clean and handles a very wide range of combat results in an extremely elegant manner). <BR/><BR/>For me, the real question is when to sell Tide of Iron (note to the kids - plastic bad, cardboard good), and when to give up and realize that at 45, the odds of me ever picking up ASL beyond the starter kits is running out, if it hasn't already.Dughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08827175240352968894noreply@blogger.com